What’s the Best Area to Buy a Short Term Rental in the Smoky Mountains? (Episode 2 of 10)

Avery Carl [00:00:00]:
Foreign welcome to the Short Term show special episode series on the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee. We are doing a 10 episode deep dive into buying short term rentals in the Smoky Mountains. So we’re going to talk about a lot of things in these episodes and we’ll probably be doing a quarterly update from here on out after we finish these 10. So make sure you hit that subscribe button so you get those delivered straight to your phone when they come out. We do have some supplemental materials for you in addition to the content on this podcast. So any information that you need on current property pricing you can find on our website at the short term shop.com and we also have, courtesy of our friends over at Air DNA, current Air DNA data for this market on our website as well. So you can check that out on the short term shop.com and if you guys are interested in buying a property in the Smoky Mountains with a Short Term Shop short term rental agent / vacation rental expert, you can email us at short term rental agent / vacation rental experts@theshorttermshop.com or if you just want to learn more about buying short term rentals in this market, you can join our Facebook group. We’ve created a 50,000 person community on Facebook all about investing in short term rentals.

Avery Carl [00:01:13]:
You can join that. It’s the same title as my book. It’s called Short Term Rental, Long Term Wealth. See you guys over there. Hey guys. So we are now on episode two of our how to Buy or Buying in the Smokies podcast. And today we’re going to talk about what to buy, what areas, things like that. We’re not going to dive too deep into the numbers today because I know you guys love numbers.

Avery Carl [00:01:38]:
And so we have an entire episode devoted to numbers. So today we’re going to talk about the more intangible things and amenities, aesthetics things, location, things like that, about what you need to be looking for and where in the Smokies. So I will go ahead and introduce my very good looking panel today. And. And we’ll start with Natalie. Ladies first. So, Natalie, introduce yourself.

Natalie [00:02:02]:
Hi, my name is Natalie. I am an short term rental agent / vacation rental expert in the Smokies and I’m also an investor in the Smokies.

Avery Carl [00:02:11]:
She’s being very humble. She is one of our top short term rental agent / vacation rental experts in the Smokies and she also owns several properties. So that was humble and I’m going to let you get away with it, sort of. Tim, introduce yourself.

Tim Grillot [00:02:27]:
All right, well, I’m not gonna be humble. No, my name’s Tim. I live in the Smokies as well. short term rental short term rental agent / vacation rental expert / vacation rental expert here as well and also an investor here. So We’ve got four cabins up here in the Smokies as well as a couple in Gulf Shores, and then we do some long term rentals in a couple other states as well. So.

Avery Carl [00:02:46]:
Thanks, Tim. And last but not least, Ethan, introduce yourself.

Ethan [00:02:51]:
All right, so I am not an short term rental agent / vacation rental expert, but I do get the pleasure of helping the short term shop with some client stuff, some Facebook lives. But when it comes to the Smokies, I am an investor. Have a couple cabins in the area.

Avery Carl [00:03:02]:
There and where else?

Ethan [00:03:05]:
I am also in Gulf Shores with Duplex. Yes.

Avery Carl [00:03:09]:
Awesome. So we’ve got several short term rental agent / vacation rental experts and investors on the call to kind of. That are very experienced, to kind of help talk about what you need to buy in the Smokies. So I will start with, you need to buy what the tourists have come to expect. And what I mean by that is in mountain markets, tourists want to stay in cabins and have the mountain experience or chalets in beach markets. You know, they want beachfront condos, beach houses. So the type of house that you buy does matter. And where I’ve seen people make mistakes before is they will choose something that is, you know, maybe like a 70s brick ranch home that looks like you could pick it up and drop it in any city in America and it would fit.

Avery Carl [00:03:57]:
So, you know, it’s like staying at your Aunt Susie’s house. It’s not really kitschy. It’s not really an experience like a mountain experience. So that’s a big thing that I see people trip up on is choosing, trying to get something like that because it’s cheaper than the actual cabins. But there’s a reason that it’s cheaper, usually, and it’s because it’s not desirable. So, guys, what are you seeing in terms of, like, what. What is the best thing to buy in the Smokies in your experience?

Natalie [00:04:25]:
Okay, well, so Avery’s right. People who are coming here are coming for the mountain experience. And so while that doesn’t necessarily mean that you are pigeonholed into that, it has to. Has to be a cabin with, you know, all wood, everything, you know, wood ceiling, wood walls. That is kind of our. That’s. That’s our thing. Right.

Natalie [00:04:47]:
And so, you know, you really do want to make sure that it is some version of a mountain experience for them. So here in the Smokies, we do also have chalets. So that’s one thing that, you know, if. If one of my clients is looking and I recommend something, oftentimes they’ll say, you know, well, this has a lot of sheetrock. Luke says you know, that’s something that, you know, Luke has talked about a lot, but you really. You’re kind of okay as long as it still has a certain feel, right? It still has that cozy or, you know, a chalet will definitely have a certain feel. It’s not going to feel like you’re going to Aunt Susan’s house, you know, and another thing is the exterior versus the interior. You don’t really have to get caught up on.

Natalie [00:05:37]:
Does the outside have a certain cabin look as much? Because, you know, guests that are shopping are, you know, you’re generally going to put your interior pictures first, so you really just want to make sure that it has, like, a cozy. The. The experience that Avery was talking about, the what people are looking for when they come to the mountains.

Avery Carl [00:05:57]:
Yeah, well, and we’ve seen a little bit of a shift from using actual wood to, like, a hardie board, just because it saves on the maintenance of having to get it stained every few years. So I know it can get really expensive to stain. It depends on the type of stain, I think, like, opaque stains, which are basically like paint is every 10 years and translucent is like, every five. But it starts to look a little worn out before then. And we’re definitely seeing a lot of the new constructions move to more of, like, a hardy board finish than real wood.

Tim Grillot [00:06:31]:
For sure. I agree with Natalie. You know, I mean, the. Again, I mean, you guys nailed it. This doesn’t want to look like where you live or. Or where your Aunt Susie lives, You know, I mean, it definitely want the experience, you know, and view in the experience. Mountain comes up, you know, view comes up, you know, do you need a view? Do you not need a view? Views are definitely awesome. And, you know, nobody.

Tim Grillot [00:06:53]:
You can’t. You can’t build a view, but. But lots of people do great without a view, you know, and it comes down to what’s the experience? You know, no view often comes with a certain element of seclusion, which is what a lot of people are going for. You know, a lot of people are wanting to get away to the mountains and, you know, so the interior matters a lot.

Ethan [00:07:11]:
Yeah. I mean, I’ll just piggyback off what. What they both said we actually have in Gatlinburg. It is a chalet. I call it a roundhouse, but my wife calls it a chalet. It’s. It’s mostly sheetrock inside, but it does really well, and I think that matters. I think in.

Ethan [00:07:27]:
In 2022, as an investor when all the craziness was going on and Natalie and Tim, being there, can probably speak a little more to this. In Pigeon Forge, there are a couple little developments that the brick houses are sold as short term rentals and the prices were, were, were, you know, for that time, more reasonable. But just. That’s not why you’re buying it. Right. And, and this year, I don’t know how they’re doing compared to how I know the cabin’s doing that, that when I book, I’m looking at a cabin, and I’m sure, I mean, that’s what people are going to the Smokies for. Right. So, yeah, I think it definitely matters what you buy, appearance wise.

Tim Grillot [00:08:03]:
Yeah, I think that comes down to, you know, a little bit of supply and demand thing. You know, I mean, when, when demand does slow down a little bit, you, you want to be the first one that books, not the last one that books. And I can tell you, if you have a, if you’ve got a brick house in the middle of Pigeon Forge with all drywall, you’re going to be the last one to book. And when there’s lots and lots and lots of demand, it will probably book. But when things slow down a little bit, you want to have, you want to be the one on the block that’s getting, that’s getting booked first.

Ethan [00:08:28]:
Absolutely.

Natalie [00:08:29]:
Yeah. And condos are another thing that people want to ask about when they’re new. You know, they’re coming to the Smokies, they’re not sure what to buy. And you know, basically I tell people exactly what we’re saying that, you know, people who are shopping on Airbnb / short term rental / vacation rental or VRBO or wherever to come here, they’re looking for, they’re coming to the mountains, they’re looking for an experience, and condo is not at the top of their list. So someone who, if you own a condo, will it rent? Sure. But if you own a rancher, will it rent? Sure. But it’s not going to rent in the same way that investors are generally looking for when they invest in the Smokies. You know, you’re, you’re usually looking for this to be like, you know, the absolute home run market in, in my opinion.

Natalie [00:09:11]:
And, and you really got to know what to buy. And if, if the only thing you’re able to do financially is a condo, there are ways to make that work. But just kind of know that that’s not what our guests are generally looking for when they come here.

Avery Carl [00:09:25]:
There’s one, maybe two condo buildings at the top of the mountain in Gatlinburg that I would be okay. With one of them is Summit and it’s spelled with two T’s, which has always bothered me, but maybe there’s a reason for that. And the other one, I can’t remember the name, but it’s right next door. Those two have really, really amazing views. I would be okay with buying something in one of those. But like, a lot of the condos that are like on the strip in Pigeon Forge and on the strip and Gatlinburg is probably not something that people are going to want in terms of renting. So that’s my just 2 cents on the condos there.

Natalie [00:09:59]:
Yeah. And we kind of touched on amenities earlier. And so when you’re talking about like, what to buy, you know, I mean, we’ve hit all of the like, specifics as far as like specifically what to buy. But then the other things that come into play is what, what is going to really drive the rentability? What’s going to drive what people are looking for? And I think one of the things, so we talked about if it has a view that’s kind of like a, like the obvious, that’s a no brainer. And then we also talked about secluded, which can be just as attractive sometimes. But the other thing that I want to mention that’s important to understand about the Smokies is we have a lot of really good resorts that were built for rentals. And you know, a lot of people, when they come, a lot of my clients that are new will say, listen, I, I don’t want cabins that are stacked up in a row. And while I understand that, I try to really make sure that investors who are thinking about investing here understand that those resorts that get labeled as the areas where, you know, cabins might be closer together than, you know, you would hope, they have a lot to offer and they rent very well.

Natalie [00:11:11]:
Most times they’ll have things like community pools. And, you know, a lot of people don’t realize that we are, you know, we’re, if you have a community pool, it’s open from Memorial Day to Labor Day, and guests absolutely love that. Sometimes they have tennis courts, sometimes they have walking paths. So don’t, you know, don’t, when you’re new, a new investor come to the Smokies, don’t write off resorts because most times they were built to be rental resorts and they can be very, very attractive. You know, you can boast pool in your headline and not have to have, you know, a pool in your cabin.

Tim Grillot [00:11:53]:
So the other thing on that, I, I1, I agree. You know, the resorts I Own one in a resort. It does. Fantastic. But, you know, people, people of all different experience levels of the mountains are coming here, you know, so a lot of people that are coming here, you know, if they’re coming from, you know, the middle of Michigan, you know, they may want to go up on top of the mountain, up some scary driveway and stuff, which I own one of those as well. But, you know, if you’re coming from Chicago or more urban city or something, the resorts are extremely appealing to those folks, you know, because they, they don’t want to be scared, you know, they don’t want to. They don’t want to drive up some crazy, you know. So, you know, I think there’s such a variety of guests that we get that they both work and exactly what Natalie said.

Tim Grillot [00:12:35]:
The amenities of the resorts are often fantastic. And it just, it’s, you know, different strokes for different folks. You’re just going to get a little bit different guest in a resort, but that doesn’t mean you won’t book at all there. You know, you drive through any of these resorts and they’re packed all the time.

Avery Carl [00:12:49]:
Yeah, yeah. And I always say that if it’s just our family, like just me and Luke and the kids, we’re probably going to go stay in one of our cabins. It’s a little bit out and not in a. A resort because that’s just our vibe. But if we add my mom to the mix, like if my parents are coming, well, my dad would be on our team to be out in the woods, but so if we’re bringing my mom to help with the kids and hang out with us, she’s going to want to be able to walk down to the pool and read a book or walk down to the pool and let the kids swim. So, you know, I think everybody, even just within one family, have some people that want to be out in the woods and some people that want to be in a resort. And we, we had someone in one of our cabins one time that it’s actually is a neighborhood, but they’re big, big lots. I don’t know why I couldn’t think of the word lot.

Avery Carl [00:13:39]:
And it’s on an acre lot. And you can’t, like, see the other cabins around you, but you can hear them. You can hear them like, shut their car door. And he put in his review that he wished there were more neighbors, which is not something that I’ve ever heard anyone say. But there really are just. There’s enough people of each style of vacationer that you’re going to get booked either way, whether it’s a resort or it’s out in the woods, you know, if you buy the right thing. So I think that’s, that’s really important, too. And in terms of views, let’s talk about that for a minute because we kind of touched on it.

Avery Carl [00:14:10]:
Natalie did. So a view is always a good thing to have. If you can get a view, absolutely get the view. But just because you can’t get a view, maybe if your budget doesn’t allow that, doesn’t mean that it’s not going to rent. Well, either of you, you’re going to. You will make more money with a view, but you, it’s going to cost you quite a bit more to get that view. So being in a wooded property or, you know, property without a view, as long as you’re still, again, buying the right thing, cute, clean, comfortable is my motto, then, then you’re going to be okay. It doesn’t have to have a view to rent.

Avery Carl [00:14:47]:
And then the people, to play devil’s advocate, I hear people all the time say, well, the view properties are going to rent first. And that may be true, but there’s only so many view properties, and there are millions and millions of tourists coming in. So when you also kind of dissect that up into the size of property that people need and other amenities and location and things like as long as you’re buying a cute, clean, comfortable place to stay that is in line with what the tourists have come to expect, you’re going to be okay, even if you don’t have a view?

Natalie [00:15:21]:
Absolutely.

Avery Carl [00:15:23]:
All right, so let’s talk about location for a minute. Different areas have different things to offer. So one thing that I want to start with, and then you guys can build off of it or make your own comments because you will probably have a little bit different experience. So a lot of people, they think Gatlinburg is the only town in the Smokies, and then they hear the word Pigeon Forge and they hear the word Sevierville. So the way it looks on a map, Gatlinburg is right on the park boundary. The furthest south, the dot, the Pigeon Forge dot on the map is a little bit north of that. I think it’s what, like six miles north? And then the Sevierville dot on the map is north of that, and it looks kind of far away. So a lot of people, when they see Sevierville addresses, they say, oh, no, that’s too far.

Avery Carl [00:16:05]:
I want to, I want to be in Pigeon Forge or Gatlinburg but what they don’t understand is that Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg, while they are their own cities, their own municipalities, they’re really more like districts inside of the larger Sevierville area. So Sevierville kind of envelops Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. So you can be way down south by the park, nowhere near that dot on the map that says Sevierville. And if it is one step outside the Gatlinburg city limits, you’re going to have a Sevierville address. So don’t. When you see Sevierville addresses, don’t automatically think, oh, the property is really far north, because it’s not. The entire area is technically Sevierville. And Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge are just little areas inside of Sevierville.

Tim Grillot [00:16:52]:
Yeah, that’s, that’s. That’s perfect. And, and you know, just expanding on that, it’s. The city limits are really small of both Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. I mean, they’re, they’re really tiny. So, I mean, when you’re looking to try and get right inside Gatlinburg, that’s great. But like, like Avery said, you’re, you’re one step out. And it’s considered, if you’re in the county, Sevier county, you get a Sevierville address.

Tim Grillot [00:17:13]:
So almost. I’d say most of the cabins that are for sale here have a Sevierville address. So I mean, to actually get a Gatlinburg address or Pigeon Forge address, you know, it’s not a bad things whatsoever, but it’s not, not necessary at all. And actually, you know, there’s lots of great areas, you know, where’s Valley and all this other things, they all have Severeville address.

Natalie [00:17:33]:
So I’ll kind of build on that. So what I, what I usually tell my clients whenever they’re new and they’re trying to get familiar with the areas that they really want to focus on. What I will tell them is that just as a general guideline, you know, when you come to the Smokies, you invest in the Smokies, you come here because in a lot of ways it’s what. When you purchase, it’s kind of like you’re fishing out of a bucket, really. And so what you want to do, I guess, kind of like anywhere is you want to focus on this, that this one specific area to be more, you know, like you are fishing out of a bucket versus if you go further away, you’re, you know, you’re still going to rent, but you’re fishing out of pond. So, as Avery was describing earlier, what I usually tell people is, so you have the parkway that sort of like, splits our tourism district in half. It runs north to south. And whenever we.

Natalie [00:18:25]:
We talk about. There’s a term that’s been floating around triangle tourism for a while. Whenever you look at a map and you look at where our guests are trying to stay, you’re like she said. So you have the parkway and the map dots, the city map dots. You have Sevierville. Then below that, Pigeon Forge, Then below that, Gatlinburg. So you have the parkway running north to south, and then from the city of Sevierville, you’re going to sort of, you know, draw a very blob like triangle. And your unofficial borders are going to be from the city of Sevierville out to Townsend, and then follow the line below Gatlinburg, which is the, you know, the national park, out to Cosby and then back up to the city of Sevierville.

Natalie [00:19:09]:
So that’s kind of like. That is where you really want to focus on staying inside of that zone, if you will. And then as long as you’re within that zone, you know, I tell people that the map dot city of Sevierville above that is sort of where we all live. So there. There are a few. There’s a few little neighborhoods or resorts, if you will, above that, that do rent. But just as far as, like, you know, making a generalization, you want to stay below the city of Sevierville, so people will venture out outside of that sometimes because they see something they like at a price point that they also like.

Avery Carl [00:19:50]:
But.

Natalie [00:19:50]:
But you really have to understand that if you want the numbers that the Smokies sort of boast about, you kind of have to stay within that zone as best you can.

Tim Grillot [00:20:01]:
Yeah, I agree. And, you know, tying, you know, building on that even further. You know, the cool thing about the Smokies that’s different than the beach. You know, when people. When you buy in the beach, you know, being closer to that ocean is the name of the game. The Smokies is different because it’s so spread out. We’re talking about this big triangle that I completely. Natalie nailed it on the triangle.

Tim Grillot [00:20:19]:
Really, you know, it kind of comes down to more of a radius situation, and there’s attractions all over the county. So, you know, if you’re, you know, another thing we talk about is, you know, how far are we from the towns? You know, because really, 20, 25 minutes of driving time to either of the two big towns. Pigeon Forge, or Gatlinburg, you’re going to do good. And that’s all going to fall inside that triangle for the most part that Natalie’s talking about. And that really, you know, much like we talked about the different types of guests that are going to stay in a resort versus not a resort, it’s kind of the same thing location wise, because, you know, somebody that wants to go to Dollywood for seven days straight is probably not going to stay in Gatlinburg, you know, because they want to be close to Dollywood. That doesn’t mean, you know, so you can do great with a cabin right next to Dollywood. You can also do great with a cabin outside of Gatlinburg. But, you know, if you get outside of Gatlinburg, you could end up 40 minutes to Dollywood.

Tim Grillot [00:21:10]:
So it’s. It’s kind of an OR situation like, you know, 20, 25 minutes driving to either Gatlinburg or Pigeon Forge. And that’s going to. That’s going to hone you in on what most people are coming for. You know, conversely, you know, some people want to do nothing but, you know, hike and go to the national park and stuff like that, and they’re going to be happier out towards, you know, where’s Valley, Townsend or the Cosby area, You know, so it just kind of depends on what people are coming for.

Ethan [00:21:33]:
Yeah, for me, personally, the very first thing I do is when I find something that I’m interested in is map it out how far it is to the island in Pigeon Forge. And that’s kind of my. My center point. We have Gatlinburg. I still map it out to the island because I just. People are going to Pigeon Forge. And, you know, in. In Pigeon, in the whole area that you guys are speaking about, you have Gatlinburg, you have Pigeon Forge.

Ethan [00:21:54]:
And then Sevierville is kind of what we call it, what we’re calling Sevierville today. They’re kind of. They got the Smoky Mountain Water park now they’re getting the BUC EE’s. Like, it just keeps building up in that area as well. I don’t think there’s. In any of that spot. You can’t go wrong. So that’s kind of how.

Ethan [00:22:08]:
How I look at it is how far are we from the island? And, you know, a sales pitch. Is it 20, 25 minutes or is it 10 miles? Which one sounds better? And that’s what I’m kind of, you know, promoting when I. When I’m sharing that information. So, yeah, they. They hit all the high points.

Natalie [00:22:24]:
Well, to build on both of those guys points. So what. What I was going to say when Tim was talking about time is I only use miles. And the reason is because one of my very first rentals at my very first cabin, I used minutes.

Avery Carl [00:22:39]:
And.

Natalie [00:22:39]:
And the problem is, is in the mountains, five miles could take you 30 minutes, or it could take you five minutes, just depending on what kind of roads you’re traveling. And is the car show in town. So I had minutes and someone was in town during the car show and during COVID right after we opened back up when there were so many people and, you know, he left a comment saying, she said it was only 20 minutes and to such and such. And it took me an hour. So from then on it was miles. And so what I tell my clients that you’re looking for is kind of like a 15 mile to the parkway radius. As long as you can get to the parkway, whether it’s Pigeon Forge, Gatlinburg, whatever, you’re going to a 15 mile radius. And then obviously you can’t go 15 miles south because you hit the park.

Natalie [00:23:29]:
And then 15 miles north might be a little bit much because you get into residential. But just 15 miles is kind of like the guideline.

Avery Carl [00:23:42]:
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I always kind of, when I’m telling clients, I say I measure in minutes because there’s no way to know in miles exactly how long it will take because it’s not straight. But I like to say like 25 minutes from either the Strip in Gatlinburg or the Strip and Pigeon Forge, because you can be 25 minutes from the Strip and Pigeon Forge and further from Gatlinburg. Not equidistant, guys. So either or. And yeah, so I think now is a perfect time to talk about where’s Valley, because we haven’t really talked about that. And I think that’s my favorite place to buy in the Smokies. And I’ve actually had people who don’t own anything here argue with me about, no, it has to be Gatlinburg.

Avery Carl [00:24:24]:
Online, when I did a video that said my favorite places to buy in Gatlinburg, I mean, in Gatlinburg, my favorite places to buy in the Smokies and Where’s Valley was number one. And he was acting like it was in, you know, off over on the other side of the state. Anyway, I love Where’s Valley, and I mean, I love all the areas. But anyway, let’s talk about Where’s Valley. So what’s the difference between Where’s Valley, Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg?

Tim Grillot [00:24:50]:
Well, Where’s Valley is a lot quieter. I live here, so obviously I’m a little bit jaded as well. I love Where’s Valley, but Where’s Valley is just kind of a quieter area. You know, it’s not, you know, the hustle and bustle of Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg can be a lot. And we own two cabins here as well in Wares Valley. And a lot of my guests love that. It’s, you know, it’s an easy drive because, you know, their kids all want to go do all the stuff, you know, go, go, you know, indoor skydiving or whatever they want to do in Pigeon Forge. Ride, go karts and.

Tim Grillot [00:25:19]:
But. But then they can get away from it and they can, you know, cook burgers on the grill. And it’s nice and quiet and peaceful and the views out here are fantastic. It’s just. It’s. It’s a beautiful, magical place. Best place on earth.

Natalie [00:25:32]:
I agree. It’s amazing. I love it. It’s. I love Where’s Valley because, you know, when you get out there, you feel like you’re very far away from town, but you aren’t. You’re very close to Pigeon Forge. You know, Where’s Valley Road sort of cuts into the heart of. Of Pigeon Forge, and that’s your lifeline to get out to both Wares Valley and the Walden’s Creek area.

Natalie [00:25:54]:
I love that area, too. Similar. Same areas, but they just sort of split on either side of the mountain. And so just you. It’s a different type of view that you get when you’re out there. A lot of times you can be in the valley looking up at the mountains, or you can be up on the mountain looking at other mountains and also down at the valley. So those are some view opportunities that you really just kind of don’t have in Pigeon Forge or Gatlinburg. So that’s one thing that makes it unique.

Natalie [00:26:22]:
But then you also have, you know, Where’s Valley is a town, so you’re not going to really find it. You know, it’s not going to be a dot on the map, but it has the cutest little. And Tim, you’ll be able to really speak to this, but it has the cutest little strip of, you know, stores, coffee shops, handicraft things, food truck court. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Grillot [00:26:47]:
No, there’s. And it kind of goes back to when we talked about attractions. You know, Natalie talked about Where’s Valley Road? Where’s Valley Road’s awesome. There’s nothing like when you’re coming out to Where’s Valley and you kind of get to the point where Cove Mountain hits you in the face. It’s just beautiful. But that road has got, you know, there’s attractions all over this county. So, I mean, there’s zip lining to do. There’s horseback riding, there’s the mountain roller.

Tim Grillot [00:27:08]:
There’s two different mountain roller coasters on Where’s Valley Road heading out towards Where’s Valley. So there’s just a lot of stuff to do without really going all the way into town. And like Natalie said, right in Wars Valley, there’s a couple wineries. There’s, you know, there’s a lot of little shops. There’s coffee shops. There’s a couple coffee shops now, actually. And then, you know, we talked about the food truck court. You know, there’s just a lot of little, you know, things to do.

Tim Grillot [00:27:31]:
We get a lot. In the summertime, there’s tons of festivals out here. So there’s always like, just these, like, things that people wouldn’t necessarily hear about, but they’ll be driving along and they’re all sudden, boom, there’s a festival and you can pop in, do all kinds of stuff.

Natalie [00:27:42]:
So I have something really quick to add to that that I think would be great. So if you’re a new investor in the Smokies and you’re. You’re looking at areas and you. You decide, right? Like, you pick where you’re going to be, no matter which side of the parkway you’re on. Once you venture away from the parkway, I think as an owner, it’s very. This isn’t necessarily something you need to maybe put in your listing, but I think that you need to become aware of the fact that there are really good little back roads. When traffic is bad here, it’s really bad. Now I live here.

Natalie [00:28:16]:
I love the traffic. I love sitting in traffic because it feels like money, right? I know if there’s lots of traffic to get places that my cabins are full right at top dollar, so it doesn’t bother me. But sometimes guests, if they’re not prepared for the fact that, you know, maybe they accidentally came during the car show that has happened, and people are like, I can’t even get to dinner. You know, so really understanding, like, hey, if someone reaches out to you, or maybe, you know, someone’s coming during the car show, right? Or whatever the busy time may be, maybe just reaching out to them or having some kind of an auto message that goes out that lets them know, you know, let’s say that you’re on the wares Valley side of town. Maybe just drop a little thing telling them that they can go, you know, look at the map. You can go Goose gap and get around traffic if you need to. Whatever, you know, just something to make your guest experience a little better. But there are back roads on for everything to get around traffic.

Tim Grillot [00:29:14]:
Yeah, I know we’re specifically on Where’s Valley, but this is kind of true. There’s a couple of other little pockets that are like where’s Valley? Nothing quite like Where’s Valley, but again, I’m biased. But when you get out, it kind of gives you a segue to going the other direction too. You know, again, just Where’s Valley? But when you’re here, if there is something crazy going on in Pigeon Forge, you can go the other way and get to Townsend. Or, you know, there’s other stuff to do and dinner places and there’s some awesome stuff out in Townsend, you know, I mean it’s getting towards the Townsend’s getting towards the end of like where you’d want to buy. It’s, it’s awesome out there too. But there’s a lot, there’s some really cool restaurants along the river out there and there’s tubing place you can go to and there’s, you know, it heads out towards Cades Cove and a lot of really cool stuff in the national park out there.

Avery Carl [00:29:58]:
Yeah, Cades Cove, by the way, is the most visited place in the Smoky Mountain National Park. So where’s Valley is between Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg and Cades Cove. So that’s a really good spot. So enough on Where’s Valley. Let’s talk about Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. Let’s start with Gatlinburg. So Gatlinburg was the first area of the Smokies to be developed for, for tourism and for short term rentals way back, like in the 60s. And if you are somebody who really wants to have one of those really Instagramable vintage A frames, that’s going to be the only place to find them is in Chalet Village in Gatlinburg.

Avery Carl [00:30:35]:
And we can get to more of this later in another episode. In terms of problems you might find with those because they are 60s and 70s builds. But, but if you’re one of those people that’s like I gotta have an A frame, then you’re gonna have to find that in. Or the only place you’re gonna find that is in Chalet village in Gatlinburg. But you guys can expand on, you know, all the other stuff that’s in Gatlinburg proper.

Ethan [00:30:56]:
I can start since I know nothing about where’s Valley. But the thing about Gatlinburg is you got the main strip that runs right through and it goes to the parkway or it goes into the park. Right. And then you got little branches, and we’re off one of the branches. We’re like 3.8 miles to the main parkway with our cabin in Gatlinburg.

Natalie [00:31:14]:
That.

Ethan [00:31:15]:
That’s kind of in my opinion. And Natalie and Tim, you know, you’re there all the time. You’re the experts probably, but you want to be close to that walking distance. Ideally. I don’t know how many cabins are actually within walking distance of the area. But you. A short little drive down to the main. Main area there, where you get out, you park, you walk the whole day there, you spend that.

Ethan [00:31:33]:
You’re close to the trails up in Gatlinburg. You know, we always like, oh, what’s the one with the falls? You guys have to tell me.

Natalie [00:31:40]:
Chimney. Chimney Falls or Ruby Falls or.

Ethan [00:31:44]:
I don’t know. Anyway. Yeah. In my opinion, you got to be within a close to that. You want to be easily accessible. Right. And the thing about our cabin in Gatlinburg versus Pigeon Forge is we got a lot more hills. It’s a lot steeper drive to get to where we need to go to.

Ethan [00:32:02]:
And. And I do worry about that, but we are very clear in our listing. And maybe. Maybe you run across something. Pigeon Forge as well. Natalie and Tim, that’s something to keep in mind. Is there. Are you.

Ethan [00:32:12]:
We’re on the side of a mountain in Gatlinburg.

Tim Grillot [00:32:15]:
Yeah. So as far as Gatlinburg, I mean, there’s a million things. The towns are both completely different. Gatlinburg is more of a walking town where like, once you park your car, you walk around, there’s a million shops to go to. There’s a million. There’s an aquarium there. There’s awesome restaurants there. Pigeon Forge is more like.

Tim Grillot [00:32:30]:
You drive from thing to thing, and it’s a little bit newer. Gatlinburg is a little bit older, but they’re both awesome. If you go to Gatlinburg anytime during anywhere near peak season, it is jam packed full of people. And you’ll see it’s. It’s. There’s no doubt. It’s. It is a major attraction for people.

Tim Grillot [00:32:45]:
There’s museums everywhere. There’s all kinds of Stuff to do. So.

Avery Carl [00:32:49]:
Yeah.

Natalie [00:32:49]:
And to. So. So Ethan was saying to be able to walk. So you don’t necessarily need to be able to walk from your cabin, but the important thing to know is that if you have a cabin in Gatlinburg, you. When. When guests are. Are coming to Gatlinburg, there, there’s plenty of places for them to park. They’re going to park along the strip.

Natalie [00:33:09]:
Tim was saying what they’re going to do is they’re going to walk the whole strip. They’re not going to drive from place to place or from one store or restaurant to the next. So. Yeah, it’s really, you know, that’s where the aquarium is. There’s two different mountaintop parks there that you take chairlifts to get up again, more mountain coasters, lots of things to do. Shopping, really good restaurants. Yeah. And then as far as buying, like, as far as investing there, you know, probably the.

Natalie [00:33:39]:
The largest, I would say, rental resort in Gatlinburg is Chalet Village. It does really well. It’s kind of on the. The backside of the mountain. When you are on the strip, it’s on the backside of that mountain. So lots of really good views to be had. And you really just twist your way down the mountain from your cabin in Chalet Village and get down to all the. The excitement.

Natalie [00:34:03]:
And then I guess we should talk about the fact that we have skiing. It’s not amazing, but, you know, we have ski resort sort of in or next to Chalet Village.

Tim Grillot [00:34:11]:
Yeah, over. Over is right there. And Chalet Village is awesome, you know, I mean, and like Avery said, you know, that’s where all your old school awesome A frames are going to be located. And, you know, going back to the type of house, you know, most of the chalets in the Smokies are in Chalet Village, you know, So, I mean, that’s. There’s not a. As many, like, log cabin type places actually up there. It’s mostly chalets, and it’s kind of got that old German vibe to it, you know, but it’s. It’s a super cool area.

Tim Grillot [00:34:36]:
There are more, you know, steeper, older roads that go with it, too, but it does really well. I mean, you just, like, can fall down the hill on your right on the strip.

Avery Carl [00:34:46]:
All right, now let’s hit Pigeon Forge. Last but not least. So Pigeon Forge is the most accessible from the interstate. Somebody actually gave me a hard time about calling it an interstate recently because she’s from New Jersey and they call it a parkway. So now I’m like, am I a redneck? Is this what rednecks call it? So Anyway, from the Interstate 40, I40, most accessible area is going to be Pigeon Forge. That’s going to be the first thing you come to. So if you’re coming south from I40, then you’re going to hit Pigeon Forge before you get to where’s Valley or Gatlinburg. And so I like Pigeon Forge.

Avery Carl [00:35:22]:
I call it little kid Vegas because there are so many attractions on both sides of the road. It’s not walkable, by the way. Gatlinburg is pretty walkable, but Pigeon Forge is not. You will have to drive everywhere. I think it. It probably does have a much bigger footprint than Gatlinburg does. And there’s plenty to do. Dollywood is just outside Pigeon Forge.

Avery Carl [00:35:42]:
I would call it a Pigeon Forge attraction. And, and there are so many things for kids to do on both sides of the road. Like you could take. If you’ve got little kids like I do. I mean, you could take three or four days and still not hit every single little kid attraction. So that’s the attraction for me. It’s also my cabin that’s in Pigeon Forge is the most accessible of any of my cabins because it’s right in town. The city takes care of the roads up to the community anyway.

Avery Carl [00:36:12]:
And we get a lot of compliments on how it’s just 10 minutes to everything. It’s five minutes to the grocery stores. You know, it’s. It’s really, really easy to get around. So if you’ve got your city slicker guests that want to continue to be as city slicker as possible on their vacation, Pigeon Forge, I think is probably going to be the way to go for them.

Natalie [00:36:31]:
Yeah, definitely. Back to Tim’s point earlier, people who want to come to the mountains, but they don’t really want to come to the mountains.

Tim Grillot [00:36:37]:
Right. Pigeon Forge as a whole is a lot flatter than Gatlinburg. You know, if you’re staying anywhere in Pigeon Forge proper, it’s going to be pretty flat. I mean, there are, there are some areas that aren’t, but, you know, like Avery said, you do drive from. From attraction to attraction, but they are everywhere. The. The kid Vegas is nailing it with a hammer on the head. I mean, it is.

Tim Grillot [00:36:56]:
It’s like driving down the strip of Vegas, but everything you can imagine for a kid. And, and it’s, it’s. It’s awesome. You know, I mean, there’s, there are literally attractions every three feet.

Ethan [00:37:06]:
So, yeah, I got you guys hit it all. I love Pigeon Forge is my favorite property. We’re right. Right off the parkway. A mile off the parkway. I love it. Everybody loves it. Close to everything, but yeah, just so much to do.

Ethan [00:37:20]:
But you’re going to go spend money if you’re in Pigeon Forge. So your guests got to think that Gatlinburg, you can go out in the. Out in the. Out in the woods. But yeah, all those things do add up. But I love Pigeon Forge. Love a property there. It’s my best property.

Avery Carl [00:37:34]:
And for those of you who are drinkers, the all. Most of the moonshine distilleries are going to be in Gatlinburg. There’s several that you can walk to. All you know at this within a few minutes of each other. There’s one in Wares Valley that’s not my favorite. My favorite, though, is Old Forge in Pigeon Forge. It has the best flavors. It has like oatmeal cookie and vanilla bean and stuff like that.

Avery Carl [00:37:58]:
So that was my favorite weekly.

Tim Grillot [00:38:00]:
That whole area right down there. That whole. That whole area is really cool. In Pigeon Forge. Yeah, that actually is kind of a walkable district. Yeah, you can park your car and walk around that district down there. It’s really cool.

Natalie [00:38:11]:
Yeah, Old Forge has a little secret bar in there, too. Like they have all the moonshine and the tasting and all that, but they have a little secret bar that they do, like house mixed drinks and stuff. It’s really good.

Avery Carl [00:38:22]:
Interesting. I haven’t been in there in years, but I did that was my favorite at the time. Okay, let’s talk about really quickly the three kind of outskirts areas that it’s still probably okay to buy, but you need to make sure that it checks all the other boxes. So what I’m talking about is Townsend on the furthest west end, Cosby on the furthest east end. And then I’m going to call it Dandridge, but it might not all be Dandridge on the furthest north end, which is by the lake. So let’s talk about. We talked about Townsend a little bit. It.

Avery Carl [00:38:56]:
I would totally buy in Townsend. I love it. I think that it’s totally cute and quiet and is what I would want in a mountain vacation. It is just past Wares Valley. So you kind of don’t know where Townsend starts and where’s Valley ends. I like, like that whole area. It’s quieter. There’s not as much traffic.

Avery Carl [00:39:14]:
Then over on the east side, you have Cosby. Cosby is going to be a little more affordable. Correct me if I’m Wrong short term rental agent / vacation rental experts. But it’s, it can be a little hit or miss. And you again, want to make sure that it checks all the boxes. Dandridge, you are closer to the lake, which is cool because lake activities in the summer are awesome. But if you’re buying a lake property on Douglas Lake, you want to make sure that the COVID that you’re buying in isn’t drained half the year. So Douglas Lake is a reservoir and they drain the water half the year.

Avery Carl [00:39:47]:
So you can buy something that is, quote lakefront and not realize that half the year it is not lakefront, it’s mud front. So keep that in mind, guys. I’ll let you expand on those three areas, though.

Tim Grillot [00:39:58]:
Yeah, I think all three of those areas can be. You will probably find cheaper properties. And, you know, I know we’re not going to get way deep into numbers, but you just got to be aware that while they are cheaper, they are further away and they’re likely not going to produce the same income as kind of that, that, you know, insider, further inside the, the triangle of tourism that Natalie talked about. All three of them have their different, you know, things that make them awesome. I agree a lot with Avery. I love Townsend. And you just gotta, you know, I’ll say, speak to your short term rental agent / vacation rental experts, but you gotta watch where you are more there. You know, I mean, if you’re on the other side of Townsend versus this side of Townsend, as we’ll say, it can make a big difference.

Tim Grillot [00:40:38]:
And so you just gotta, you just gotta watch it and you gotta prepare to not have the same numbers that you’re going to get more inside. So.

Natalie [00:40:46]:
Absolutely, yeah. It’s, it’s just fishing out of a pond versus fishing out of a bucket. You, you will rent. People like to stay out that way, but it’s, you know, it’s just your, your pool of people gets a little smaller because the majority of people coming here want some version of the entertainment, whether it be Dollywood, hiking, whatever. Vegas, you know, the Vegas strip in Pigeon Forge, whatever it is, that’s what the majority of people are coming for. So you will catch fish, but it’s fishing out of a pond versus a bucket.

Tim Grillot [00:41:19]:
Now you nailed it there. The, the, the, the consumer that you’re getting is going to be, you know, it checks less boxes, you know. You know, and when you’re more in the middle of like, where’s valley or something, you can, you’re checking the boxes of being close enough to the activity or the, the attractions of the big towns, but can still do the hiking. Once you get out further, you’re more into the outdoorsy stuff and there’s lots. And don’ me wrong, I love it out. You know, there’s lots of outdoorsy stuff to do out there, but that’s, you know, people that are booking out there, that’s pretty much all they want to do.

Natalie [00:41:47]:
Yeah. And there’s a really cool mountain bike path coming to the Cosby side of town. So not that that’s necessarily going to be a huge draw, but there, it’s just a. It’s a slower pace and a lot of people want that, you know, so people will rent. But again, it’s just the, it’s the masses versus just not. So.

Tim Grillot [00:42:09]:
Yeah, they just added some mountain biking in Townsend too. And now they’re renting. They’re renting e bikes out there and they’re, you know, there’s, there’s cool stuff to do, but it’s just, it’s just more like that’s all you’re gonna do.

Natalie [00:42:19]:
Really quick while we’re on that one, one little area, one little pocket that is worth mentioning that we didn’t. Is the Pittman center and Cobbly Knob part of town.

Avery Carl [00:42:28]:
How could we forget?

Natalie [00:42:29]:
Yeah, I know. So, yeah. So that on the, on the east side of town, towards Cosby.

Avery Carl [00:42:34]:
The east side of town, meaning Gatlinburg.

Natalie [00:42:36]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of the triangle. The east side of the triangle. I guess. So you have little communities. They’re just towns, not even towns communities. The Pittman center area and the Cobbly Knob area. There are amazing views to be had in Cobbly Knob and it absolutely rents very well.

Tim Grillot [00:42:57]:
Yeah. I’ve had several clients buying Cobbling Knob and absolutely love it. They’re crushing it. And there is a down. There is a golf course there too. It’s not, it’s not something that you’re, you know, if you buy there, your guests don’t just get to play there for free or anything. But it’s a, it’s a. I’m not a golfer, but I’ve heard it’s a great golf course and you actually drive through the golf course going up to the cabins.

Tim Grillot [00:43:17]:
It’s really cool.

Avery Carl [00:43:17]:
So that, yeah, it looks bougie driving in, but it’s not, it’s not bougie. Some of them can be. But it. Cobbly Knob really does have some of the best views in the area because it’s like close up, beautiful mountain, like majestic views. I do love cobbling up.

Tim Grillot [00:43:33]:
And the cool thing is, is you can get almost, you know, I’m gonna go on a stretch here and say affordable. But you can get some like, older, smaller houses in Kalbi Knob that have fantastic views. And you know, a lot of the more dense areas, it’s hard to get, you know, like a smaller house that doesn’t, you know, with it, with a view. So.

Avery Carl [00:43:52]:
All right, so we talked about location, we talked about view. Let’s talk about size. So there’s a lot of studio properties out there, which is not common in a lot of other markets. But I own a studio. I know. I think Ethan owns a studio or two maybe. And so you can get anything from a studio all the way up to. I think we actually did sell list and sell the most bedrooms in a cabin in the Smoky Mountains a few years ago at 27 bedrooms.

Avery Carl [00:44:22]:
There might be another one out there that was built specifically for an owner that was never sold. But we have the biggest one in our, in our back pocket that was ever listed and sold. So you can get everything from zero bedrooms to 27 bedrooms. So what do you guys think is the sweet spot for investors? Is there a sweet spot? What are your thoughts?

Ethan [00:44:42]:
So I’ll lead off and say I’m sure there is a sweet spot, but I really think this comes down to what you’re looking for. I mean, the three to four, the bigger you get, I think the more you have in returns. Tim and Natalie, maybe I’ll speak to that better. But as you mentioned, for me, I’ve got a studio and I got a two bedroom and that’s my preference. And I don’t know that right now I want to go much bigger than that. I want occupancy. I want to be able that mom and, mom and dad and their one or two kids can go at any time. And my place is bookable at an affordable rate.

Ethan [00:45:13]:
And so I do believe as you grow in bedrooms, the more you can sleep, the probably the better your return is. But I think it really matters too what you’re looking for as an investor. And I like that occupancy and that studio we have over 20, 22 was 96 booked. We had, we had very few open nights. And I love that that’s what I’m here for. So that’s my take.

Tim Grillot [00:45:37]:
Yeah, my take. I mean the sweet spot to me is all the way from a studio to a six bedroom. And you know, it varies a little bit on what you can afford, but I think that really captures like again, if you’re looking at the bucket instead of the pond, like Natalie’s been saying, you know, that’s what most people are coming here within at that amount of people, you know, anywhere from, you know, the, the studios is more of a couple, you know, all the way up to a couple, you know, families or even a small, you know, maybe a small, some kind of getaway that’s, you know, a family reunion or something like that. You get into the, the way bigger properties and it’s a, to me, it’s a little bit different thing. You really have to bank on, you know, people going together, which they do. I mean, the bigger ones still do good. It’s just a little bit different than the, you know, once you get above a six bedroom, it just kind of changes. Your consumer base changes a bit.

Tim Grillot [00:46:20]:
But I kind of agree with Ethan. I love the smaller ones. There’s a good argument to be made that your ROI on around a four bedro is kind of probably the sweet spot just due to, you know, some scalability things. And, and, you know, I mean, from a management standpoint, it kind of takes the same amount of time to manage a four bedroom as it does a one bedroom. But if you’re looking for occupancy, the smaller the better, you know, and then as they go up, the occupancy is less, but the ROI kind of goes up.

Natalie [00:46:46]:
So I’ll take. Okay, so I’ll, I’ll agree with Tim on that. Studio to six is kind of like the range for me, bigger than that becomes its own, you know, its own undertaking. But I’ll zone in a little bit more and I’ll say specifically for me as an investor, two to four, that’s my sweet spot. Two to four. And then for different reasons, you know, like, you know, we’ve talked about before that if you’re going to do a full, a two bed and you can afford a four bed, you know, you might as well go ahead because it’s just as, you know, it’s the same amount of effort, you know, it’s one, you know, one roof versus if you had two, two bedrooms. All of those arguments. But I don’t know, I really let that 2 to 2 to 4.

Natalie [00:47:30]:
I love a 3 somewhere in that zone because it tends to stay booked more frequently. And then in that zone, like if you can afford a three or four, going with that, just to increase your potential income on that. But you kind of keep a similar occupancy in that like 2 to 4 range.

Avery Carl [00:47:53]:
Something else I want to point out about that. So if you’re looking and you’re thinking, well, I don’t know If I want to buy two two bedrooms or one four bedroom, so the income is going to be over double. I would say in most cases there’s exceptions to every rule on a four versus two twos. But where, where you, what people don’t really think about is if you’re buying two two bedrooms versus one four, your expenses are double on tutus because there’s two of them. A four bedroom is not going to have double the expenses of a two bedroom. It might just be 10 to 15% more depending on, you know, a number of factors. So that’s something to think about too. There’s definitely an argument to be made for the I don’t want to have all my eggs in one basket, so I’m going to buy two two bedrooms.

Avery Carl [00:48:37]:
There’s nothing wrong with that. The thing about this is there’s not a wrong answer in terms of what size to buy in the Smokies, between one and six bedrooms. There’s not a wrong answer because they’re all going to. Assuming you’re buying the right thing, you’re managing things the correct way and you’re buying the right area, they’re all going to do what you need them to do. But it’s a question of what works best for you if you need to have 22 bedrooms to sleep better at night. Because if once something breaks in one of them and you have to cancel a booking, you’re only canceling half of your bookings, not all of your bookings. If you only had one bigger property, that’s something to think about too. And there’s nothing wrong with liking to see a full calendar.

Avery Carl [00:49:15]:
So you’re also going to see differences in the smaller ones are going to have much higher occupancy rates than the bigger ones, but that does not necessarily translate into a higher return on investment. So keep that in mind as well.

Natalie [00:49:28]:
I think something you just said is important to kind of bring it all together that no matter where you buy, right, as long as you’re within the triangle of tourism, no matter where you buy, no matter what you buy, within reason. Obviously not a brick rancher or condo, whatever. But the key is that it’s going your, your, your income that you’re going to see on that is going to boil down to how well you manage it. So I’ll see clients, especially if they’re new, a lot of times getting really caught in the weeds of micro analyzing a 2 versus a 4 or where’s valley versus closer to the Parkway and Pigeon Forge. And it really isn’t that, you know, it really isn’t that much of a science. It is, but it isn’t because it boils down to, you could have this amazing property that checks all the boxes you think are important, close to the parkway, whatever, and manage it very poorly and not see the returns that someone sees on a studio out in Wares Valley. So, like, understanding the, the importance of a well managed property. And fortunately, whenever you buy with a short term shop, Luke’s gonna, you know, there’s a whole team, but everyone’s gonna make sure that you understand at least what that looks like to be well managed.

Avery Carl [00:50:39]:
Yeah. And we, we talk about that. I don’t know if we’re going to talk about that so much in a later episode, but we do talk about that a lot at the short term shop. So if you follow any of our other content besides this podcast, it’s out there. All right, moving away from size, let’s talk about furniture, decor and amenities. So I guess let’s. The elephant in the room first is amenities. So indoor pools, hot tubs, all that stuff people do, fire pits, people have other things.

Avery Carl [00:51:13]:
So you absolutely have to have a hot tub in the Smokies. Not because it’s not going to like, like increase, it’s not going to make you unique and increase your bookings in that way. But like, every single property in the Smokies has a hot tub. So in order to be competitive, you need to have one. Can you guys think of any other things that you have to have in the Smokies besides a hot tub?

Tim Grillot [00:51:36]:
I think it varies a little bit on the property size. You know, it’s different answer on a zero bedroom than it is a six bedroom. But the thing I’ll just touch on is some sort of entertainment, you know, you know, people want stuff to do when they get home. You know, obviously, you know, before I get to that, you know, basics are, you know, you gotta have some, you know, a well stocked kitchen, you gotta have good furniture, you gotta have all those things. But entertainment’s important, I think. And you know, a lot of this is, you know, people are going on vacation and they’re going to the mountains, and most people go in the mountains are to like doing this but want to spend quality time. So they want to either even if they don’t use this stuff, they want to imagine themselves using it. So, I mean, pool tables are popular, gaming systems are popular, arcades are popular.

Tim Grillot [00:52:15]:
People want to, you know, sit around and do things with their family. I mean, if you have a zero bedroom, you probably don’t have room for, you know, a bunch of stuff. But I still think it’s important, you know, I mean, even if it’s nothing more than a cool area to play board games or play cards or something like that. But people come here for family time. So you know, whether they’re doing attractions or not doing attractions, at the end of the day they’re coming back to cabin and they want to, they want to spend time with the family. So I think, I think some sort of, you know, the bigger the property, the more important more stuff is. You know, if you, if you’re sleeping 16 people, you need to be able to entertain 16 people and have them, you know, be able to be comfortable and do fun stuff.

Avery Carl [00:52:51]:
So yeah, I agree with that. And I personally am not a pool table person because I don’t play pool. And then now as a mom it’s like, wow, this is just really heavy projectiles for my children to throw at each other and me and the cabin. And so we actually have taken the pool tables out of some of our properties and but you, if you’re going to do that, you do have to replace them with an arcade game or something. I also, when it comes to games, I think that it, it’s cool to say, oh we have the latest PlayStation or whatever. But the thing about those types of consoles is you have to have the actual games and they get up and walk away. Especially if they’re like the good new games that everybody wants to play. The, the kind that don’t walk away.

Avery Carl [00:53:39]:
Like the older family games aren’t necessarily that attractive to people of the age that play video games. So I recommend like a game, an arcade, like a stand up or a table arcade game. So it’s still something that they can do but you don’t add to the stress or of things walking away, things breaking. The guest thinks there’s, oh cool, there’s a PlayStation that’s awesome and they get there and it doesn’t have the right game and then you’re disappointing them and there’s all kinds of. It just adds an extra layer of BS to that you have to deal with when you have like a PlayStation type console. So I’m a big fan of arcade stand up arcade games or like the game tables but not the consoles. But anyway, if you’re going to get rid of the pool table or the air hockey or whatever it is, I would leave air hockey. Personally I like that a lot.

Avery Carl [00:54:29]:
But if you’re getting rid of a pool table, you do have to replace it with some type of game arcade, what have you, in my opinion. Let’s talk about indoor pools because that’s a big one. That’s a huge one in the smokey is like all the new constructions, a lot of them are coming with indoor pools. They do add a ton of income versus a comparable property without a pool. But it is going to cost you a lot extra to get a pool. And keep in mind that pools require maintenance, which, the maintenance part isn’t that hard. But now you have a whole set of pool equipment and the pool structure itself to break, leak, have problems, do things. So it’s not just buy a pool and make a million dollars.

Avery Carl [00:55:11]:
It’s buy a pool and also have to deal with the bullshit of getting, you know, maintaining the pool. Things are going to break. You know, the more systems you add to a property, the more things are going to break. And that’s one of those. So keep that in mind if you’re looking for a pool cabin. What do you guys think?

Tim Grillot [00:55:27]:
No doubt pools are popular and you, you kind of nailed it. It’s another system. So, you know, if you’re going to get a pool cabin, you just need to prepare yourself to, to put the systems in place to, to manage that. You know, it’s a whole nother system that you need to manage. And there’s no doubt they, you know, people love them. There’s a big argument that like during your slower periods that they can add occupancy to a bigger property. You know, during the middle of winter, people will get a pool cabin. And so they can still do something, you know, if it’s too cold outside to do anything else.

Tim Grillot [00:55:54]:
So I think they’re great. I don’t own any. Don’t know if I ever will. But I do think they’re awesome.

Natalie [00:56:02]:
I, I agree and I, I do think that the, the January, February, maybe March, you know, I think that it absolutely puts you in a situation where if people can rent something where their kids can have some kind of entertainment like that, that they would possibly pick you before they would pick, you know, others that didn’t have that. But I personally really like the model of trying to buy something that has a community pool because for most of the year that’s something I can advertise and not have the maintenance. So if you’re someone that likes the idea, but you don’t want the maintenance that comes with it, consider talking to your short term rental agent / vacation rental expert about trying to find something in an area that has a community pool.

Avery Carl [00:56:44]:
Yeah, I don’t own any pools. In the Smokies, but I do in other markets. And I have a property that has a pool, a private pool, and then I have another one that has a community pool. And the private pool one does make a lot more money, but you know, there’s, there’s things you have to deal with throughout the year. So it is a trade off. You know, this is a job, it is work. It’s, well, not a job, but it’s. It’s work to be done, managing systems.

Avery Carl [00:57:05]:
So just keep that in mind. Pool properties do make a ton of. But again, it’s like a view. You don’t have to buy a property with a pool to do well. So me as a renter at this stage in my life, my kids are little and even though there’s all kinds of security measures and you have to enter a code to get into the pool room, like, it’s just not something that I want to think about dealing with my kids, like, and, and having a pool inside the house. So for everybody who wants one, who feels like, oh my God, that’s the coolest thing ever, we have to rent this house.

Natalie [00:57:36]:
House.

Avery Carl [00:57:37]:
There’s going to be people who are like, yeah, we don’t really want to deal with that or we, we don’t. We just want a regular cabin. So it’s not something that you have to have to do well, but it is a really cool amenity that a lot of people want to rent that a lot of people will pay really good money to rent a property with.

Natalie [00:57:52]:
Yeah, pros and cons for sure.

Tim Grillot [00:57:55]:
It goes back to. It goes back to. There’s. So there’s such a diverse amount of people that are coming here. You know, it really goes back to that. You know, I mean there’s. There is no doubt there are lots of people that want a pool cabin, but like Avery said, it’s not necessary whatsoever. There’s lots of people that come here that wouldn’t want to stay in a pool cabin.

Tim Grillot [00:58:11]:
So.

Avery Carl [00:58:12]:
Yeah.

Ethan [00:58:12]:
And one note on Natalie’s thing about community pool, and just make sure you check with your short term rental agent / vacation rental expert that if you self manage that you are. Your guests are allowed to use that pool because one of ours that we’re in where we self manage, our guests don’t have access to the pool. So just a note and your short term rental agent / vacation rental expert should be able to get that for you.

Natalie [00:58:28]:
Yeah, we pretty much just have one resort here that you know, and your short term rental agent / vacation rental expert should be very. Should be aware of that. That it’s for owners, not guests.

Ethan [00:58:38]:
Yeah, yeah. This one’s for guests if you use the property manager. Yeah, yeah.

Avery Carl [00:58:43]:
All right, so let’s talk about furnishings and decor. So this is a market where if you’re somebody who’s like, man, I really want to get into the short term rental game, but it’s so much to get started to furnish a property from scratch. I don’t have that kind of money. So this is a good market for that because most everything is going to come furnished. So you can knock off a lot of that big line item expense by buying a furnished property. It may not be exactly what to what your taste is, but it’s not starting from scratch. So that’s cool. However, what are the types of furnishings and decor that you guys think rent the best that you want to look for if you can get it.

Avery Carl [00:59:24]:
And I also want to keep in mind like a lot of the ways that I furnish my cabins that I know will rent really well are not the way I would furnish my personal house that I live in. So you have to separate that, especially if you’re brand new and you want it to be like exactly how you want it to be. It does. It’s not necessarily always going to match what you would actually have in your house versus what rents. Well, so what are you guys seeing.

Natalie [00:59:50]:
Log or wood furniture here in our market, you really, you know, and that’s a majority of what you’re, what you’re buying is probably going to come with that. Most of the cabins built here were built between 95 and 05. That was the big construction boom. And then obviously, you know, 06, you know, everything kind of halted and then picked up again around 20, 15 or 16. And so a lot of what you’re buying is going to be in that 20 year old range. The cool thing about the furniture that’s in there, as far as, let’s just say bedroom furniture or dining room furniture is it’s not going to be your taste of what you would buy for your house, but it’s going to be what guests have come to expect over the years here. That log, hickory, aspen, whatever look that it has. And then the cool thing about it is that it’s kind of timeless.

Natalie [01:00:38]:
Right. Like it is if it may need a good cleaning. But if you go buy log furniture today, it’s going to look very similar, if not the same to what would be in a 20 year old cabin. And that’s really cool. That’s really, that’s a great thing about buying in our market. The only thing different from that is going to be Things that are like sofas or fabric chairs, those are the kind of things that you. You may end up having to eventually change out. Fabric holds onto smells and, you know, just different, different factors like that.

Natalie [01:01:12]:
But some, if it’s not going to be log furniture, it needs to be some type of wood. And I know I get a lot.

Avery Carl [01:01:19]:
Of farmhouse style, I would say, yeah, for sure.

Natalie [01:01:23]:
And, you know, the, the key is to really remember and understand, like we’ve talked about through the whole call, is know your audience, know who’s coming here, know who you’re trying to cater to. And I get that the wood on wood on wood look is not necessarily, you know what, it doesn’t feel modern and it doesn’t feel like hip and chic and like something you would find if you went to like Aspen or another mountain town somewhere else. But that’s the Smokies. You want to stay true to the Smokies. What you don’t have to do, though, a lot of what you’re buying that’s roughly 20 years old is going to have a ton of black bear stuff decor, right? And so that one thing you need to understand is black bears are very near and dear to everyone’s heart in the Smokies. Coming to the Smokies. Smokies, whatever. But you can absolutely freshen up that old decor by getting rid of, let’s say, half of the black bear decor.

Natalie [01:02:22]:
Keep some, maybe just a little, and then one good trip to like, you know, Hobby Lobby or Home Goods or something like that to get a little bit more modern, clean decor. But you, you really don’t want to come in here into the Smokies and wipe everything out of this 20 year old cabin and bring in all of this stuff that looks like something that would be in a cabin in Tahoe. You just don’t. You really don’t want to do that.

Avery Carl [01:02:50]:
You don’t have to. You could if you wanted to, but you don’t have to. I think a lot of people are like, oh, I’d hate the log. I hate log furniture. I think it’s really ugly. But I’m not living in the house, so I don’t care. It rents fine. So I’m going to leave it there.

Avery Carl [01:03:04]:
I think log or like a modern farmhouse, like Chip and Joanna vibe. What do you guys think about. And this is, this is a controversial topic. So disclaimer painting a tongue and groove accent wall. I actually like it. I know a lot of people are like, oh, my God, the tongue and groove. You don’t Paint the tongue and groove. But I, I’ve seen a few people recently do like a white or a dark gray accent wall, and it actually looks really, really good.

Avery Carl [01:03:34]:
Like, my grandmother has wood paneling in, in her house. That was, Was. Is. Was a very nice. I should probably be careful what I say. Really, really nice house that she bought in 1970. And now we’re like, hey, can we get rid of this wood paneling? And she’s like, no, it was really expensive. And we’re like, but it’s wood paneling, so it’s kind of the same thing.

Avery Carl [01:03:55]:
So I, I like an accent wall to, to freshen up, because you can kind of, in my opinion, and maybe there’s other people who feel like this out there. I, I don’t want to take away from the actual feel and the vibe, but I also sometimes in a, like yellow pine. Yellow pine. Yellow pine everywhere. Wall, ceiling, floor, wood, everything kind of feel like I’m in a coffin a little bit. And I like an accent wall. Are you guys pro or anti accent wall on the tongue and groove?

Tim Grillot [01:04:25]:
I’m, I’m pro. I’m pro. And I, and I, I’m not, I’m not going to disagree with Natalie, but I think there’s some exception around some of the decor. I think, think, you know, the, the audience of people that are coming here, I’ll say changes. I, I feel like changes and evolves, you know, I mean, kids that have come here, you know, since they were a little kid, when they’re, when they’re, you know, 35 and bringing their family are gonna want to, you know, they don’t want to. They’re not gonna want it to look exactly like it did before. I, I also agree that you don’t want to completely take away the vibe of a smoky’s cabin. So it’s like you can keep some bones of, of what a smokey’s cabin is.

Tim Grillot [01:04:59]:
You know, it’s got to be log. You have some log furniture. You gotta have some of this. But I think you can change it up, you know, over the years and, and update your, you know, you can do it with decor and furniture, you know, and you can, you can change things around, put some more modern stuff in it. The modern farmhouse thing right now is hot. Accent walls are hot. And I don’t know, people get sacrilegious. Like you said, Avery, about painting.

Tim Grillot [01:05:19]:
Painting a wall. To me, it’s paint, you know, I mean, yeah, it’s hard to undo. I mean, you. But you can, you can undo it. It Takes some effort. But to me, just because somebody, you know, I don’t know, I. I like things being updated and change. So I, I’m.

Tim Grillot [01:05:33]:
I’m kind of in the middle.

Ethan [01:05:36]:
I have no preference on the accent wall. Whatever my wife says is perfect, so.

Tim Grillot [01:05:41]:
Good answer. That’s the best answer right there.

Ethan [01:05:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. What I do like about the furniture, the. All the discussion is, and you. You mentioned it up front, Avery, is all your places are going to come furnished, and whatever you have right now is going to rent. Maybe for not as much as you want it to, but it is going to rent. So if you’re. If you spend all your money buying your place, you’ve gone to the hobby lobby and got everything 50 off.

Ethan [01:06:03]:
No matter what time of year it is, you don’t have to. You don’t have to output a lot of money right then to update that. You can let your guests pay for that and do it over time and then increase your rates as you get nicer furniture. You know, that’s what I like about the Smokies.

Avery Carl [01:06:19]:
Yeah. And it’s. I found a really great art. Art place that I hesitate to just give out, but I’m gonna give it out because it’s, you know, it’s. It’s affordable. It’s called Society 6. It’s online, and you can get. There’s any possible kind of art you could ever think of.

Avery Carl [01:06:34]:
I’m sure, like, people who are actually into art and art dealers are cringing as I say this, but these are for rentals, and you can get like a cool, updated, like, modern looking picture of a bear or an elk or whatever. A lot of people have moose decor here, and it always makes me laugh because there’s nothing not moose here. But, you know, and it goes back to.

Tim Grillot [01:06:54]:
It goes back to different. Different. Different people, like, different things. You know, I mean, we’ve, you know, modernized some of ours. And we actually, this Christmas, we had a guest come in and they asked if they could decorate for Christmas. And we’re like, which we do decorate for Christmas. But we’re like, yeah, do whatever you want. And they were, like, so proud of it.

Tim Grillot [01:07:11]:
They sent us all these pictures that were like the most horrific cell phone pictures on the planet that they were super proud of. And it was, to me, is the most hideous thing I ever saw. It looked like Christmas literally threw up for four days inside of our cabin. I mean, they Christmas everything, you know, but it just. It just goes back to, like, that’s what they loved, and that was their dream of staying in a, a cabin in the Smokies for Christmas. So, you know, my point, I guess, is like, it’s like your opinion isn’t going to be everybody else’s opinion. So you want to decorate in a way that, you know, I’m not going to say neutral completely, but different people are gonna like different things. Not everybody’s gonna love your style, and not everybody’s gonna love the 100 cat smokey style.

Tim Grillot [01:07:49]:
So, you know, know, it’s not that there’s not a wrong answer, but don’t go too overboard thinking you have to make it exactly the way your super contemporary modern thing and some other state needs to look because that’s. It’s not the case here. It needs to, and it does need to look like a cabin. So.

Avery Carl [01:08:05]:
All right, well, that is the end of my checklist of things to talk about on this episode. So thank you guys so, so much for coming on. And if you guys have any questions for these guests or want to hear more from them, we do have a group called Short Term Rental, Long Term wealth, where you can ask plenty of these questions. We also have a private group for our clients who are our real estate clients only called the Short Term Shop Buyers Club. If you want to become a client and be able to join that and talk about our markets, you can do that by going to the short term shop.com and click get connected with an short term rental agent / vacation rental expert and we will get you hooked up. And we hope you guys found this valuable. And please let us know if you have any questions. You know where to find us and we’ll talk to you guys soon.

Avery Carl [01:08:49]:
Thank you so much for coming on, guys.

Natalie [01:08:50]:
Thanks, Avery.

Ethan [01:08:51]:
Thank you.